Great arguments as ever Andy, thank you. I think we are all feeling this and there is an element of catharsis in getting it out. But when you say "So that’s the only way we can ‘solve’ this predicament. ..Just be about 75% poorer than you are now. I don’t know about you, but that is not something I am currently planning on." So what are you "planning on"? How do you cope with this?
And I like to think that, seeing so many people around me who don't give a shit with all their polluting ways and toys, that maybe i might just be below the average and only have to reduce by say 50%!! Is that doable over a period of time?
Or put it another way: don't be daunted by the all or nothing 75% if that stops you doing anything. Just try to make it, say 10-20% each year?
Exactly. It's never going to happen. The worlds poor are not going to be dissuaded from pursuing the luxury and material security of the developed world and us wealthy elites aren't likely to give an inch other than a small percentage who have to do things like veggie garden and make their own soap to prevent the onset of a nervous breakdown. We stay drunk, as you say Andy, and most don't even acknowledge a drinking habit, whilst the fabric of our society reflects back to us the glow of success you'll definitely feel when totally tanked. I muse too on the fact that those struggling to make the grocery bill each week in our society, living in rented accommodation and totally disenfranchised from the opportunities of the 'lucky few' are, by dint of the system, living beyond sustainable limits even when, at a personal level their lifestyles might feel anything but profligate. I could be wrong, I've got no data, I'm just observing and guessing. But if I'm anywhere close to the truth it raises additional issues around how we shape values and opportunities in a society where stepping off the consumption treadmill leads to a better standard of living and not a worse one. If I try and follow the logic it always sends me back to how our collective measures of success, personal value and achievement are shaped. I've got a really good friend, he runs an environmental contracting company and he is in a permanent state of angst that most of the work his team does is questionable at best, a total waste of money for no environmental benefit at worst. He's a good dude, genuinely cares. But his coping mechanism? Things like a luxury car that costs what most folks take about 4-5yrs to earn accumulatively. To his credit (I guess) he hardly uses the thing, and is totally aware of how absurd it is, but also acknowledges it's part of how he achieves some sense of internal pacification and justification for the stress, anxiety and graft. I ask him, so do you suffer fewer panic attacks with this thing in your garage. Of course his answer is no. I think this is caused by the heavily marketed values of individualism that he and I are steeped in. But it does demand the question, if this friend of mine has some understanding of how material wealth is no avenue to either happiness or stress relief, and he's a smart dude with good values, how the hell do we expect those that don't give a care to adjust their behaviour. Sorry for the disjointed waffle but I think what I was trying to nudge towards is that the poor (in our society) are miserable, the rich are miserable and just about everybody is living unsustainably. Is it really so hard to find a model of living that gives us contentment, creativity and positive sense of progress and reward that is sustainable? Surely it's not that hard and surely for a big chunk of society it would look like an obvious choice if it was in front of them?
Many of us fell for the "Renewables will save us meme", I went of grid 20 yrs ago. It won't change anything materially but it was good for my soul and fictitious bank balance. ;-)
I've added this blog to Mark Brimblecombe's master piece below;
Thanks for telling it like it is.
Trapped in Vain Decline
Better than I can say it. Spot on!
Great arguments as ever Andy, thank you. I think we are all feeling this and there is an element of catharsis in getting it out. But when you say "So that’s the only way we can ‘solve’ this predicament. ..Just be about 75% poorer than you are now. I don’t know about you, but that is not something I am currently planning on." So what are you "planning on"? How do you cope with this?
And I like to think that, seeing so many people around me who don't give a shit with all their polluting ways and toys, that maybe i might just be below the average and only have to reduce by say 50%!! Is that doable over a period of time?
Or put it another way: don't be daunted by the all or nothing 75% if that stops you doing anything. Just try to make it, say 10-20% each year?
Exactly. It's never going to happen. The worlds poor are not going to be dissuaded from pursuing the luxury and material security of the developed world and us wealthy elites aren't likely to give an inch other than a small percentage who have to do things like veggie garden and make their own soap to prevent the onset of a nervous breakdown. We stay drunk, as you say Andy, and most don't even acknowledge a drinking habit, whilst the fabric of our society reflects back to us the glow of success you'll definitely feel when totally tanked. I muse too on the fact that those struggling to make the grocery bill each week in our society, living in rented accommodation and totally disenfranchised from the opportunities of the 'lucky few' are, by dint of the system, living beyond sustainable limits even when, at a personal level their lifestyles might feel anything but profligate. I could be wrong, I've got no data, I'm just observing and guessing. But if I'm anywhere close to the truth it raises additional issues around how we shape values and opportunities in a society where stepping off the consumption treadmill leads to a better standard of living and not a worse one. If I try and follow the logic it always sends me back to how our collective measures of success, personal value and achievement are shaped. I've got a really good friend, he runs an environmental contracting company and he is in a permanent state of angst that most of the work his team does is questionable at best, a total waste of money for no environmental benefit at worst. He's a good dude, genuinely cares. But his coping mechanism? Things like a luxury car that costs what most folks take about 4-5yrs to earn accumulatively. To his credit (I guess) he hardly uses the thing, and is totally aware of how absurd it is, but also acknowledges it's part of how he achieves some sense of internal pacification and justification for the stress, anxiety and graft. I ask him, so do you suffer fewer panic attacks with this thing in your garage. Of course his answer is no. I think this is caused by the heavily marketed values of individualism that he and I are steeped in. But it does demand the question, if this friend of mine has some understanding of how material wealth is no avenue to either happiness or stress relief, and he's a smart dude with good values, how the hell do we expect those that don't give a care to adjust their behaviour. Sorry for the disjointed waffle but I think what I was trying to nudge towards is that the poor (in our society) are miserable, the rich are miserable and just about everybody is living unsustainably. Is it really so hard to find a model of living that gives us contentment, creativity and positive sense of progress and reward that is sustainable? Surely it's not that hard and surely for a big chunk of society it would look like an obvious choice if it was in front of them?
Many of us fell for the "Renewables will save us meme", I went of grid 20 yrs ago. It won't change anything materially but it was good for my soul and fictitious bank balance. ;-)
I've added this blog to Mark Brimblecombe's master piece below;
https://markbrimblecombeblog.wordpress.com/2021/01/18/climate-change-and-the-mitigation-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-153